Amanda Palmer: How to Drink With Your Fans
After reading the article as though I were gobbling my last meal, I sat back to bask in the afterglow and allowed the reading to fully digest. Is it really so outrageous to expect a celebrity to not only mingle, but want to mingle with their fans? Is it really that out there of a concept?? What about the other side of the coin, where we expect celebrities to recoil in horror at the idea of “hanging with the commoners” (aka – the fans)? Why is the behavior Amanda Palmer describes so bizarre that in nearly every interview, she is asked about “this relationship” she has with her fans?
Palmer explains that she and her fans take care of one another. She explains to an interviewer that it’s a complicated relationship, but that it is real. She goes further to liken it to a marriage, by asking the interviewer if he is married, and then saying they only have two minutes, but that she’d like him to explain the entire relationship. He laughs uncomfortably, and she agrees – it’s not easy to wrap-up or describe in 120 seconds. And as we fans know, it IS that complicated. Palmer gives the examples of how she has met some of the people who threw their support behind her by offering large sums of money on Kickstarter (in return for some really amazing opportunities with her), and how in each case, she got something out of it in return, creating and cultivating relationships with her fans. It’s a far cry from the “relationship” that I had with Duran Duran at 13 years old, I must say.
As any Duranie from the 80s knows, there was no internet back then. My news came from the radio or maybe a magazine. I had absolutely zero chance of ever meeting Roger Taylor or Simon LeBon beyond the close confines of my bedroom…where they were pinned and taped to my wall in the form of posters and pinups, courtesy of Tiger Beat. There was no “chatting” with the band unless you were lucky enough to have a parent that allowed you to traipse all over the country in search of them (I was not!), and maybe then you had that chance to know Simon, John, Nick, Roger or Andy. I wasn’t in that club. My “relationship” with them occurred in my head, my daydreams, my posters on my wall and the music coming out of my stereo. My thoughts WERE my escape from reality. We had good times even if the band has absolutely no idea who I am or that my favorite color was blue and that my favorite band member was Roger. I think that the band grew comfortable with the idea that for the most part, there was a huge barrier called the Atlantic Ocean between themselves and the fans in my country. Even when visiting, the band was kept at a very large arm’s distance from fans – you couldn’t get very near them unless you were extremely lucky, and for most of us, “closer” simply just didn’t exist. Those efforts were for their safety as much as our own, and it was all we ever knew. Status quo, undisturbed. Mostly.
In 1984, that way was the right way. The only way, really. Since then though, rules have definitely changed. We’ve all had to adjust to some extent. Boundaries are far different and far less “brick wall-like” as they were then. Never mind social media…nowadays I’ll bet it’s downright startling for the band to realize that there are fans who can and do stay in the same hotels on a regular basis. There is an incredible amount of access available, even if not utilized appropriately, to the band these days. Some might say there’s never been a better time to be a fan. I would agree, if only I understood the rules. The “right” way to be a fan is different for every single person, and there’s judgement a-plenty to go ’round. Even I have things I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing, yet the person next to me may think all is OK, and really – what do I know anyway?
On the other side of this proverbial boundary you’ve got the band, who probably thinks so much of this access stuff is way over-the-top ridiculous. Our blog alone could probably send them into a tailspin, which is why I’m positive they never read. (can’t blame them a bit!) Just imagine being them, they did so much of their maturing during a time when fans were kept at much at bay as possible. They “knew” us purely by fan mail (if you were lucky and your mail made it to them), and definitely not from things like Facebook or Twitter. THEY made the music, WE showed up to concerts and screamed, and nary between the two shall meet. Simple and easy. They didn’t need to acknowledge us, talk to us, or try and see past the “freaky fan” image because by and large, we never really got much closer than the barriers in the front of the stage allowed. We were probably as much of an enigma (granted a very loud enigma) to them as they were to us. Personally, I think the idea of sharing themselves with us on a personal level of any kind is still a little bit alarming for them, and they don’t know how to take us. Yes, there are those who know the band beyond what I’m describing…but those are the select few. The rest of us, the group that *I* fit best into, well, we’re all still awkwardly trying to figure out the whole fan/band connection thing. We don’t know how to act, they don’t know how to act…we can’t tell when they’re trying to sell us something or really trying to connect, and they can’t decide whether to run screaming or embrace us a teensy bit. It’s weird, it’s not natural, but we all try.
Sometimes I feel as though I should apologize for being a fan, as though being a fan instantly pegs me as a crazy, as a bad thing. The whole relationship between fan and band is really messed up because you know, if I weren’t still a fan and you weren’t still a fan…who would buy their music and go to their shows? It’s a screwed-up philosophy from start to finish, and in retrospect I’m very very glad that we didn’t have Twitter or Facebook back when I was 12. It’s tough to navigate my way through this minefield appropriately now, much less back when I was a socially awkward 12 year old.
There are times when I really wish I didn’t know they were celebrities or rock stars because there’s no real way to unknow that celebrity awareness, as a result there’s really no way to solve the fan/band member equation…and after thirty years, it seems to me that it would really be so nice to sit down, grab a beer or even a coffee with any one of them and just get past all of the celebrity/fan BS and talk about something else entirely. By and large, we simply cannot…and the band probably doesn’t feel that they can sit down and have drinks with us any more than they can tweet without someone tweeting them the same “I love you” statements fifty times to them. Or any more than we can stop second guessing every single thing any other fan says to them as though this competitive game we’re all playing will ever come to a positive end for anyone. I still ask if there’s some sort of prize or trophy given at the end of which I’m unaware. Our connection is real, but the relationship is unnatural..and I wish it didn’t have to be that way, regardless of how much of a “saddo” that makes me.
Very interesting exploration. I think some of this is what I tried to resolve in Friends of Mine– the ambivalence I felt– without looking at it so analytically.
It's also bringing a “what-if” for a new novel to the forefront…
@EasternViolet here… The Amanda Palmer enigma has perplexed me for quite some time. Her star rose BECAUSE of social media. (Talented yes… but she has expertly leveraged social media .) She knew how to use the tools at her fingertips with success. (P.S. She did a TED talk, more on this, if you are so inclined to check this out). Duran have been masters of the media as well… and used the tools that were available to them with incredible success as well. That is how I became a fan. I didn't even have MTV. I lived in the middle of nowhere. But still, I was able to see their charming grins on the cover of the magazines at the local gas station) But now the worlds have collided… the untouchables on a pedestal, (and veritable apotheosis) meets P2P social media. What a mess. Today is the anniversary that JT gave the social media talk… and on that he admits to having used twitter. My how things have changed. He is now an expected contributor by some estimates.
There is so much more that I could comment on — one being that the distance between Duran and the fan makes it hard to differentiate between being a fan and a consumer. Sometimes I feel as I am treated as a potential customer. Now that I think about it a little harder… I am not sure what the band needs to do to make me feel more of a fan. (Sign something? Take a picture with me? Is there something that can happen without being face-to-face?)
You've raised all kinds of interesting questions here! I am not sure anyone has any answers!
~Heather
I've read a lot of romance novels based on that fantasy. 😀 But I think there are any number of different angles one can reflect upon here though, not just the romantic fantasy – and unlike some publishers that I am aware of, I would very much like to read a book like that. 🙂
-R
EXACTLY. You are why I write, Heather. 🙂 I love love love this basic subject (as one might be able to tell) and I really do want to dive in deeper and do some continued research on the subject. It's one area that every single fandom writer touches upon (the fan/celebrity equation) and yet no one really goes deep without it becoming some sort of a pathological explanation of fandom. That's not it. There's way more going on here than the romanticized fantasy of meeting the object of interest. There's the whole social marketing equation – taking someone from being a potential customer to a fan. There's the idea of the connection itself and how that is created and fostered. Then there's Amanda Palmer herself. I can't figure that girl out at all, but I'm totally fascinated by her use of social media to become a star. I love it all and I want to research more. I'd go back to school and get my Ph.D. if I had the time….but I'd much rather spend that time doing it all on my own anyway.
-R
I LOVE this blog! So many questions to ask … shown that it IS possible if only desired by ALL parties … and possible reasons as to why it's not. Thanks for talking about what so many of us wonder.
Lots of questions, no really firm answers…love that sort of thing. 🙂 I'm glad you're enjoying it the reading, because I really do love the writing! -R
This is something that completely confuses me, this fan/celebrity thing. It IS complicated I guess, and I love everything you said–and said so well! I tend to whittle things down to their barest bones rather quickly, and I just don't look at Duran as being all that different from anybody else. Check that: *I* don't see them that way, but circumstances sometimes make it seem that it IS that way. Example. Organized meet and greet things. They BAFFLE me. I know I have a weird perspective, but..You pay money to stand in a hallway and 'meet' someone (who really doesnt much care about meeting YOU), and then go about your merry way with your nice picture in hand? This seems so contrived to me, so artificial, and I just don't see the point of it. UNLESS you see these guys as a commodity (and God, so many obviously do). That's when it makes sense. And so you cant then turn around and blame the guys for doing these (weird) things. They're just giving their consumers what they want. Mutualistic relationship. So what? And now that I think about it, there's really nothing wrong with that-if everyone's getting what they want out of it, go and knock yourself out.
(Maybe in the early 80s I would've been such a consumer. I can barely remember back that far. Plus, I was a child. Kids do weird crap. So none of that counts. :-P)
Now? I guess i can't honestly say that these guys are just 'regular' people to me. I think that's because of the past associations I've had with them-that we've all had. When I see old pics of them, it takes me a minute to wrap my brain around the fact that THOSE guys are the ones I see today. It's like two separate lifetimes or something. But when I interact on whatever level with any of them (mostly it's been John), I see them as just *them*. I really do. I know they live and have lived extraordinary lives that I cant relate to, but I'm sure I've had experiences they've not had, too. That's just life. (Boy, I'm thinking of this way too philosophically.) I think some celebrities put themselves on pedestals, think of themselves as separate from (better than?) their 'fans', and maybe they HAVE to to retain some level of sanity, or maybe it helps them feel good about who they are. i dont know. But if I get that vibe that in any way from someone, I tune right out. This may be why some people felt sort of funny about John 'returning' to twitter for promotion stuff-nobody wants to feel used or duped, and I can see why they could have felt that way. But WE aren't living HIS life, either. We don't know his side of things, so I just decided to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't being a shit. And even if he was? Do I blame him? Not really. But if that's all there ever was to it, I also wouldn't blame anyone on the receiving end tuning him out. Works both ways, doesn't it? It's really a delicate balance, all of this. Celebs could choose to be reclusive and never interact at all, or they can be like some (check out C. Thomas Howell) and treat 'fans' graciously, as if there's no divide between them at all. Or there's the murky middle ground where we all pretty much are with Duran. Im sure they're still trying to find their right path with all of this stuff, too. It's kinda like that idealistic notion that if you show your kid you trust him, he'll become more trustworthy as a result. So who's gonna go first?
Oh my. I just now read the Amanda Palmer article you referred to here. Wow. Just wow.
I tried replying earlier Jonee…but blogger ate my comment. Fucker.
I can't write it all again, but basically I think that there are several things going on here:
1. Knowing and acknowledging that they are rock stars.
2. Objectifying them – as though they were something to own, possess, etc.
3. Treating them as you would anybody else
4. Making excuses for them because they are in fact rock stars and we should be lucky to have whatever they give
5. Recognizing that the “relationship” we have with them is not normal. It's not reciprocal in the same way – at least not for the vast majority of us – as with other people who are not rock stars/celebrities.
Each of those points are completely independent of the others. Meaning, you can agree to one and not the others…or a few and not all. And there are probably many other points I didn't even bother listing. There's just no simple way about any of it. -R
It is an interesting balance. I think the key is now we have grown up (hopefully!) enough to understand how to be polite and how to speak like a human being. I mean we know if they are with family or friends, you have to decide if approaching will be an intrusion. If you CAN approach and politely apologize for the interruption and just say hello, you can see how they react and if they are open to more contact. The key is to make sure you acknowledge everyone there and not be rude. And make it clear you will leave them alone, but just wanted to say hello. As an example, anyway. I mean there are good and bad times to approach anyone. Sometimes, it is welcome. Sometimes even they are @ a bar or whatever and drink with fans. As long as you are not trying to corner them or monopolize their time, it should be OK, as long as they are not trying to have privacy with a friend or something. Many people say things like, “Oh, I met so and so and he was so rude.” Well, think for a moment. How were YOU? Did you just barge in and force your way into a conversation and then ignore the other person there so you could gush @ your favourite guy? Well, maybe YOU were the asshole. They are not expected to perform like trained seals for us in public on their own time. Lower your expectations and hope for the best. Smile, be nice and see if they have TIME to talk to you. Beyond that, what more do you really want?
I think that what you say here is all fine and good…the problem is, of course, implementation…and that is where as fans, I see that we fail over and over again. I've been places where fans have been with the guys. They aren't treated as people. They're treated as pieces of meat in a lion cage. It's really disgusting, and what I think people fail to realize is that it doesn't have to be that the entire CROWD treats them that way – it could be just a person or two, and believe me, it makes enough of a fuss to turn everyone off.
-R
I think-bottom line–each member has his own comfort level with interactions. It is what it is. I can only control me, and, for me, the artificial means of interacting (be it paying for a routine m&g or falling all over myself to be followed on twitter or something) are out of my realm of interest. If the shit ain't real? Forget it. Sometimes determining what's real can be hard, but that's another can of worms.
Why do we always put celebs on pedestals anyway? They can't climb up there unless we allow them to. Unless they're just as delusional as some fans. 😉
I think the pedestal thing is a societal reaction that is very much controlled by media. Otherwise people like the Kardashians wouldn't be “celebrities”. We value them highly as a society – I mean, look how much they are paid. That alone speaks volumes. We would rather pay an actor on a TV series a ridiculous sum of money, allow them to be wealthier than most people could ever imagine…and yet our teachers, people who are typically very well educated and are responsible for helping to shape the minds of our young…are paid very poorly in comparison. How messed up is that?? So I think when you throw money at celebrities, you make sure they live in the lap of luxury and they are provided opportunities that no one else will ever really have the chance to do – the pedestal is right there. People look up to them because they are at a height of success, money, opportunity and recognition that most of the rest of us will never achieve. You can't help but look up to that and forget that they are normal people who, in the majority of cases…just got lucky. I mean, I know PLENTY of actors/actresses that are every bit as talented as the celebrities out there, but never quite make it.Same with musicians. Some people just get lucky. -R
I guess if those things are seen as most important and valuable (money, status, fame, whatevz), then yeah. What it says to me is that lots of people place more importance on those things than I do. Those things are fleeting. I hope celebs have a soft cushion to fall on when their pedestal crumbles. I really do. Must be a tough lesson.
I am sure it is, but I hope you can see my point – it doesn't even have to be about whether you or I place importance on those things: our society as a whole does that, and fans basically follow suit (although I believe that given the basic definition of a fan – the pedestal is already there).
I remember when Duran Duran first announced their reunion shows. They had given several interviews where they openly said that they were surprised that the fans still wanted them – that they weren't sure how it would go. I sensed humility, and had hoped that would continue – not because I didn't want them to know how great they are, but because selfishly – I was ready to connect with the band on a different level. Not that I thought we'd all go out for coffee or become friends, but because *I* had changed from the girl I was at 12. I don't find the same sorts of things as incredibly fascinating now as I did then. Silly, fleeting hopes of course, but I had really hoped we'd all moved past the screaming and grabbing at them as though they were meat. -R
I am all too well aware of a situation like what you mention and yes, I agree. One or two CAN ruin it for everyone. I definitely get what you mean. That is why I said I HOPE everyone has grown up and can act accordingly. Knowing the time when to speak to someone is why I have not had a real conversation with Simon yet. I knew there were times when he was not alone and it would not have been appropriate for me to really interact with him. I had to hold back and politely just wave hello or say a quick greeting and let it go @ that. Personally, the last thing I would want to do is annoy him and then have him always think of that when he sees me. Impressions are everything and I want to make a good one. I just wish others would remember that.
But even that has a time and place. On stage, Simon purposely does things to whip the crowd up and he EATS UP that attention and the whole being treated like meat thing. It is FUN for them in that context. And it give us a chance to act out some sort of fantasy. But it is when they are off stage we need to learn to interact on a more one to one level. And even then, they occasionally like to play into that whole thing. Simon especially does things to egg people on and can be “playful” and a bit risque. Obviously, one needs to guage the mood and act accordingly.
Amazing blog by lady Palmer…
Not amazed by the number of comments and replies this one blog entry has had.
It's not easy to deal on what kind of relationship the most representative act of the 80s can have in the current social era, 'coz back in the 80s it was the videomusic era: I think the real investment on communication are happening today..
I'm glad I am just able to post messages on their social pages today and it's a thrill.
If the word “sex” wasn't plastered all over the Duran Duran image, if the relationship wasn't so much about surface, things wouldn't be so complicated. It's the busloads of people that would say or do anything to please. Try meeting the band on a more sophisticated level or lead the conversation to a topic that they love (i.e. Simon… sailing…). Know your stuff. If you're lost, think of an interesting question to prove you've got a brain. Know the boundaries. Would I want to meet everyone and their goldfish even if they paid for my deluxe lifestyle? Hell, no! I'd like to single out the interesting ones, please. The ones that offer me new perspectives about things. The ones that discover undiscovered areas of my own artistry. The ones that actually inspire me instead of vice versa. If you can't do that, at least say something funny. Actually, that first night of JT's book readings in London… can't get any better than that. So much genuine love and excitement in the house, both on stage and in the audience. The keywords here I think are 'authenticity' and 'originality'. Be real, not fake. Give, don't just expect to take. If you can't even think of an interesting question to ask, then what does it say about your relationship with the band? I guess, Amanda Palmer has lots of authenticity in her life.
Dear HoraceScope (love the name, BTW. Thank you for not just going with “anonymous”. I mean, if you're gonna do it – do it with flair, right?) This name reminds me that we're in the sign of Scorpio, and that my birthday is in fact tomorrow. Yes, I just plugged myself on my own blog. Nice.
Every now and then…we get a comment that I really, really enjoy. Not because it tells me I'm wonderful, and not because it tells me that I wrote the blog they wished they'd written…(although let's face it, those things are nice every once in a while), but because it makes sense, and it makes me think. You've done that here, and believe me when I say that today, I needed it.
I think if nothing else, if you've read this blog with any sort of regularity, you would know that if nothing else, we say exactly what we're thinking when we write. It drives me up the damn WALL to be anything else. I would never make it in politics, because I will not wax poetic just to stroke someone's ego, and sometimes – I even change my mind. There are many, many times when we have a completely different perspective on things than other fans do – and, there are times when we just don't like something the band has done. *gasp* I guess, at least in my head, if everyone who met me told me that everything I ever did was wonderful – I'd have no way to know when something I did was REALLY good, you know? Besides, who really wants to talk about themselves 24/7 anyway?
I agree, the image of the band has got to have played some sort of part in all of this – I'm sort of ashamed (to a degree) that I didn't take the time to mention the effect that has had to have had in this particular blog. It's pretty damn cliché at this point isn't it? I mean, sure, it's “the IMAGE”…but don't we ever get sick of that? I do. There were/are times for it, and then there are times just to be real people. I think that's where I'm at right now. Authenticity would be a nice change of pace. I know the band can't really do that on a public sort of basis, but wow there are times when I wish they could.
Look at me. It's easy to write all of this. I've met “The Band” exactly one time. At a signing..which really isn't the same thing as actually meeting and having a conversation. I had maybe 5-10 seconds in front of each one of them. I didn't say a lot because it felt so incredibly weird. “Hi John”, Oh wait..he's not even looking at me because there's so much noise he doesn't even know who said what…ridiculous! 🙂 Sure, I was thankful to get my Astronaut album signed and to be there with my daughter and show her what being a fan of something is really like – that is what that time was for, and a fan has to realize that going in. Sometimes you just have to take the seconds as they come, I guess? That said, if I ever really get the opportunity again and it's a reasonable setting, I sure hope I remember some of what you've offered here. Then again, I hope I don't have to “remember” it, because I'm pretty damn funny, sarcastic and REAL all on my own.
-R