I already hearing many of you responding to this. We shouldn’t dictate how much fans should know! Everyone is different! People can’t be expected to know everything! I’m not saying that anyone, especially ME, should decide anything. I’m saying that we should talk about how much Duranies should know and what they should know. Maybe we will never come to an agreement but, at least, we can find out how people feel about knowledge. We can, at least, come to an understanding. I am starting the conversation here. I don’t have answers to these questions. I just want to stop some of the disagreements and disappointments that seem to happen. Let me give some examples to explain. Fan number 1 asks John Taylor on Twitter about what his favorite wine is. This fan is not aware that John no longer drinks. Fan number 2 says either out loud to that person or other fans behind fan number one’s back something along the line of, “How does this person not know this!?” Fan 1 simply didn’t know. Fan 2 is bothered by this because s/he does not want John to be put into an uncomfortable position. Is either fan wrong? Is neither fan wrong? How should fans handle a situation like that? Here is another example: Fan number 3 has never heard the Astronaut demos. Fan number 4 is horrified by that since in his/her experience and knowledge they are available in countless locations online! Again, did either fan do or say anything wrong? I don’t know. Here is what I do know. Knowledge is deemed somewhat important in this community. After all, we wouldn’t get upset with interviewers who ask questions like, “Are Roger and John brothers?” Also, the situations I described above happen all the time. In too many cases, the responses cause hurt feelings whether that was intentional or not. Wouldn’t it be better to decide what is important to know and how we should handle it if people don’t know things?
So, readers, I ask you. What do you think Duranies should know about the music? Should they have heard every official album? What about side projects and solo work? What should they know about the band members themselves? Should they know, for example, that Nick doesn’t like sports or that Simon has three daughters? What about new fans? Should we have some sort of understanding towards them? Maybe, it isn’t how much fans should know but what they know? Then, based on our community agreement, could we also come up with a way to respond that is respectful and kind as this is part of the problem as well. For those fans who do know more, they don’t always respond in ways that are constructive to the fans who know less. Too often, the comments are destructive and hurtful. Let’s face it. The reactions are so intense because fandom brings out intense emotions. Duran Duran, in our case, matters to us. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t be doing anything with the band or their fans. Yet, there has to be a way for us to focus our intense feelings on being excited about the band and not being bothered by other fans!
-A
I seem to find that if your only tie to the fan community isn't a confined one, i.e. fan forums and the like, duranies are much more open and accepting. Facebook is a GOOD place for fans, especially those that are more open minded about things you know, how you feel, how you think, about Duran Duran and just being yourself in general. There are some obvious exceptions to even this rule of course as some fans are finding out but when it happens other fans are far more likely to gather their share of support because they can…they aren't limited or confined due to “affiliations” or the “group mentality” that can and in some very real cases thrive heavily in more closed fan environments.
I loved your “taboo” article and I'm glad you 2 keep writing. It helps keep the middle ground open and thriving.
Cheers!!!
Shawn
Ok, I am really frustrated. Just spent last hour crafting this great response. Then my pinky finger slipped and my page disappeared.
So, the doc will just quote Albert Ellis, founder of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, in my addressing the problems in Duranland: “Don't should on yourself”, and “stop musterbating” — neither leads to happiness. In this case, the glue that binds fandom is love of the band and connecting with others who share that, and others who are up and coming fans and want to learn more. Like squashing a new generation of duranies is a good idea, yeah right.
Hierarchy, dominance, back stabbing, rumor spreading, alienation, bullying. Sound like middle school to anyone else but me?
Please. I am of the belief, as was Ellis, that individuals are responsible for their own happiness. It is our beliefs, reactions, and emotional responses to situations that make or break it. And the biggest interference to one's happiness? My goals, expectations, musts, shoulds, are not being met.
Sound familiar?
So when I read the blog today, Albert Ellis was in my head. That's not a bad thing from where I sit.
[http://www.rebt.ws/albert_ellis_the_essence_of_rebt.htm]
My initial reaction to reading this article is a lot of “wtf? Does this sort of snobbery and cattiness really take place amongst fans?” However… I do get super annoyed at young (in their 20's) fans attempting to push their way forward at GA shows. Or trying to cut in line at GA shows. It's a behavior that isn't usually seen amongst Duranies old enough to have been a fan back in the 1980's Does this agesim count? lol When I have been a fan since before some of those girls were born, I abosolutely have a right to stake out my place closer to the stage! 😀 haha
Maybe what every Duran fan should know is how to conduct themselves with manners–both on and off the Internet. Start off by being humble instead of acting like a “know-it-all”. Offer to inform and/or help another DD fan/newbie in whatever information they lack. For example, instead of complaining (openly or privately) about why someone hasn't heard the Notorious demos by now, suggest a source for them to hear it. If they print/say something in error, gently correct them instead of shooting them down with biting words. Not everyone has kept up with Duran Duran continuously for 30+ years…and that isn't a federal crime (even by DD fan standards). People fall in and out of love with the band for various reasons…there are other, more important life events that require priority attention…we all have (or at least should have) interests elsewhere. Why do some fans feel the need to act superior because *gasp!* someone didn't know that John married a second time or that Roger divorced from Giovanna? I bet if I were to inquire of everyone here about the depth or breadth of their knowledge of local or international politics, a lot of people would outright FAIL (which is sad because it's something that directly affects US, no matter how distasteful the subject).
In summary–remember patience, kindness and the beauty of silence (or walking away).
Shawn-If I understand you correctly, the solution is that fans should not place themselves in fan forums, which tend to be closed-minded, but in places like facebook. That definitely may help individual fans have better, more positive experiences. Why do you think the boards are so much worse? Is there something that can be done about it?
Glad that you loved the “taboo” post!
-A
What about my example with knowing about John's not drinking? Would reactions like the one I gave be an example of bullying? People wanting to protect John from being asked that question don't seem like bullies, necessarily, to me. Yes, I would argue that we need to discuss HOW to react to people, but I just don't think it is that simple to label some people as bullies or to call the behavior middle school like. Don't you think open communication could be helpful?
-A
Yeah, I think this is an example of a taboo subject. Should fans have to pay their dues in order to get up front in a GA show or a meet and greet or whatever? We don't really talk about it but we ALL probably have opinions about it and when the situation arises people on both sides get upset! I am wondering how we can stop those hurt feelings.
-A
I completely agree with you. Maybe that is what the fan community has to agree to do. Perhaps, the fans who have been around longer should learn how to convey some of their knowledge and to do it in a way that is respectful. Then, on the other hand, I think it would help for the newer fans to take some time to learn, especially when the older fans share the information. Both sides need to step up.
-A
Amanda,
Fans should be allowed to be fans, even if they disagree or are new to the band and it's music. Fan forums have been starting to show their age & imperfections for some time now especially with the advent of social networks. The capabilities of the social networks far surpass those of fan forums when it comes to a more open atmosphere for the sharing of ideas and experiences with like-minded people. They also have better safeguards in place for everyone, not just for some. Social networks are far more adaptable and allow personal expression from all angles. Fan forums expand only as far as it's staff and members allow it to.
Can fan forums be fixed to compare with social networks? I believe it is possible. Forums already in a lengthy existence were created on a more personal level, by those looking to communicate with people who share their personality as well as their beliefs, ideology, and temperament. A “fans only” club if you will. The problem being that the staff & majority (or silent minority) ultimately decide which members qualify as “fans” and deal with any given situation as they see fit without oversight because they are the ones making and changing the rules to “fit the forums needs”. An easy way of saying we don't like you, buh-bye.
It all comes down to this really…..if you want to be a private fan in a place that allows you to become a decision maker based on your “fan loyalty”, fan forums are the place for you. If you want to be a fan in a place that allows for growth & camaraderie come naturally while safeguarding the interests of ALL involved equally, the you should join a social network.
~S
Deb-No one is saying that fans shouldn't be allowed to be fans, even if they disagree or are new to the band. I'm saying that fans should be open about various issues in order to STOP problems. I don't necessarily agree that fan forums are closed off places and social networking sites are open places for growth and camaraderie. I have been on message boards that are very open and wonderful places and I have seen horrible conflicts on social networking. I think it is important not to generalize here.
-A
You called me Deb…..LOL.
I am on only 1 DD fan forum that is not like that.
I do agree that places like FB CAN have problems. The difference is that FB isn't controlled by just 1 or 2 people….and you CAN protect yourself by blocking users. As a user in a forum, you cannot block admin or other members who may be using ignorant behavior against you or others. Also, other members who see the behavior may also refrain from standing up to the offending behavior for fear of getting treated the same way. It IS a problem in some DD fan forums. Fans who know about the issues either don't want to be found out or they just might not think it's a big enough deal for them to get involved…..I cannot speak for them, only myself and my own experiences. The problems won't stop until the fans & the band pool together to make it happen. I am hopeful that positive change can come, regardless of how my experience may read. Cheers!!!
~S
Judging from the reactions here – I get the feeling that perhaps the real point of the blog was lost. Rather than talking about these specific issues (such as the few you suggested, Amanda), it would seem to me that people are upset that any of this occurs at all. It's like ripping off a well-bandaged wound that has been festering and exposing it to air for the first time. It stings.
It would seem that all of us know how we should behave, but no one wants to actually discuss the issues. That to me is the interest here…people like to sweep the bad stuff under the carpet and ignore it. 😀 -R
Sorry, I called you Deb. 🙁
How do you think the band could help??
-A
Lol. Shawn, in the fan community, I find it interesting that there are no comments in the report abuse or problems folder. So there you go. And I have also noticed that one must gain access to specific privileges, which I only learned about by accident. I don't recall what I was tring to do, maybe make another topic beyond what is already there or something even much minor than that. Hand slapped. And it wasn't about being a moderator or administrator. It was just access denied. So it begs the question again of hierarchy and status, how one earns it, and who is deemed “worthy” of such privileges. IMHO, should be equal opportunity for the $ paid.
Deb
Absolutely. I think that's where the slip of my pinky finger ( my tremor in action) deleted the point. Perhaps my meaning is more clear in my response to Shawn above. Anytime there is some kind of exclusion of an individual or group of fans, that is bullying. As one who has dealt with bullies in a therapeutic role, and in how I govern my own self, I ask myself 3 questions before opening my mouth when talking to someone perhaps about someone else ( lets be honest, we all gossip and talk about others): 1. Is it true? 2. Is it kind? 3. Is it necessary?
I'm all for gentle approaches to educating folks who may not know something like JT is sober, and that communication in a manner of respect for one another is a key issue in the blog and subsequent comments.
Butya know what? We all have choices. And if I don't feel accepted and welcomed anywhere, whether in dd fan land, if I perceive that I am not permitted to express my ideas and comment freely within the rules of respectful discourse, I can leave and find somewhere else. That holds true for any relationship in my book. Red flags go up for me, or yellow penalty flags if football fan, too, when people behave poorly. And I can block people in social media.
I feel so grateful for this blog and the people I've connected with on twitter, but especially here.
Thx Rhonda and Amanda for creating an open space to explore such taboo subjects and more!
Deb
Ahh, here it is, the one thing that I wonder about, too. Do people, like me, older than f*@&$, have any rights, since we have been fans much longer than the newbies? Are seasoned “real” fans, therefore “entitled” to certain privileges? It's like believing in the slogan of a famous credit card company ” membership ( amongst cardholders) has its privileges”.
Does entitlement equal expectation? Idk.
I just want to have fun and enjoy, express my appreciation for the band, learn more from others, re-live fond memories of days gone by, and reignite those teenage feelings I thought once gone forever.
Do I expect a great performance? Always. I know dd delivers every time. I never doubt. I am privileged by being there sharing that moment in time, live, with the band. And, when listening privately in my car or at home, singing lyrics, I feel a double winner.
The band owes me nothing. There are no debts or deservances. Would I like to be up front? Sure. Am I gonna stomp my feet and throw a temper tantrum and say “that's not fair!we were fans first”? No way.
Im a grown up, at least chronologically, and I do believe such a mindset among fans is divisive.
Thanks for bringing this taboo subject up. Takes courage to do so.
I will admit that I went absolutely bonkers! And Amanda and Rhonda can attest to that, when DDM was not forthcoming with dates and pre sales , and that awful realization that my membership had no benefits. I did have my 2 yr old temper tantrum for sure. I own it. Sorry I took A&R down with me. See? When it comes to dd, perhaps we all go a bit crazy now and then. It's the pervasive patterns that are the red flags.
Peace out, deb
Here here! Agreed!
Deb
Let me just say upfront so there is no confusion…I do NOT blame the band NOR am I saying it is their sole responsibility.
I firmly believe that the band does not condone bullying or aggressiveness of any kind either within it's fan-base or outside of it towards anything or anyone. I do believe that the fan-base would respond to the band if they at least stood up about it publicly….not in a poster child way, just as a participant in the fight against it way. The other problem that faces fans in a free fan forum setting vs. a social network the sites using free or inexpensive hosting services never really do much to police those sites for such negative behaviors as they expect the admin & staff to be the proactive arm…and unfortunately, most of them are either unwilling to draw such attention to themselves or they are so set in their ways that they see nothing wrong with the negative behavior.
Education of one's self when it comes to joining any place to share fandom should be paramount to just “being a part of the group” if these types of things matter to you. I know they matter to me and that is why I now steer clear of all but the 1 site I participate in.
~S
Interesting, so you wanted to know from us readers, what the taboo topics are that are out there, not our reactions to the notion that people don't talk about the culture of some dd fan groups. Is that correct? I guess I just haven't been in the fan circles long enough to know other than the observations I have reported. Maybe I just don't get involved in it or overlook it because I see it for what it is……ridiculous.
I would like to know your take since you both are more aware of what the hidden rules are.
Deb
I would like to see sharing of information about the band's musical history for those who may not be so well versed….because frankly, some aren't as well versed as others…they may not follow the band as regularly as other fans might. A good number of the fan forums aren't necessarily for the feint of heart in this regard. They have core groups of long time members that are used to themselves as fellow fans. When new people come in or those who aren't as fluent in Duran try to discuss these things they aren't always met with the kindest of receptions. Lurking in these forums long before you participate in conversations is probably the best way to gather information and a sense of place when working a discussion floor. Getting stage side at a show…..well, I've seen old time duranies physically displace others just so they could get or keep their spots so that point is probably mute…..LOL. I believe it has a lot to do with the some sense of entitlement….why it exists is beyond me but it does and I've seen it in action. As for sweeping bad stuff under the carpet…even the band has exhibited this behavior more than occasionally and maybe that is why a good number of it's fans embrace and prefer this train of thought.
~S
I agree, Shawn, that it is important to educate one self before joining any place to share fandom. I know that I am definitely one to lurk before speaking anywhere. I like to observe to find some of those hidden rules (the ones I'm trying to bring out here).
As for the band, yes, I suppose they could come out against behavior that is less than kind.
One thing I wonder about is this notion of “bullies”. I have seen it used throughout the fandom. I'm just not sure how everyone defines it. I'll give an example. One Duranie posts a comment on a message board. Second Duranie responds by calling the first Duranie a name. Okay. That could be considered bullying. What if the first Duranie responds by calling the second Duranie a different name? Is that still bullying? What if it is two Duranies who used to be friends but something happened in which they are no longer friends. Their friends chose sides and all of them talk about each other. Is that bullying? In my experience, there is a difference between one individual person being picked on by many vs. negative statements being said by multiple people to each other.
-A
I definitely think that we, as a community, should discuss if fans who have been around longer have more privileges and should have more privileges.
-A
No, we know what the taboo subjects are. We want to discuss them in order for open communication and better relationships in the fan community. For the sake of this particular post, I wanted to discuss if there is a basic amount of information that all fans need to know.
-A
Maybe the Daily Duranie should put together a FAQ for new fans???
-A
One piece of personal experience I can share….at least in Duranland….it sometimes doesn't matter where you go if you're feeling unwelcome. I had the admin of 1 site I was on contact the admin at the other site I joined. The second admin actually publicly posted about the private contact, which in front of my duranie peers, was a death stroke in the making….one I tried not to acknowledge in lieu of fighting for the fair treatment of all members.
The admin of the forum I am a member of now received the same contact. This admin knew me and my passions and made me a moderator based solely on those facts. It felt awesome to finally be treated as an equal.
I think the idea of privilege as a fan based on the length of time one has been a fan is a bit presumptuous. If us older fans push back the younger or newer fans…..we might as well just tell them not to spend the money on tickets…go home. We should share our experience and passion with them so they can find their place in the fandom and feel welcome and appreciated at the same time.
~S
What an awful experience in the beginning! Luckily, someone had enough guts to do the right thing!
-A
So…you'll get started on that then, Amanda….OK great!! ;). -R
Sounds like a good project on the road this summer while on tour!!!
-A
I am not officially part of the apparent Duranie clicks on Facebook or Twitter (or this website). I happened upon this site because I am a Duran Duran fan (and have been since 1983). So, I guess that puts me in the “entitled” category (compared to the 20 year olds) 😉 I have to say, I am a bit put off by the Duran clicks I've stumbled upon thru Facebook and Twitter. I think it's a damn shame that this sense of superiority, jealousy, and cattiness continues between women who are mostly in their 40's. It's very odd to me. Like I said, I stumbled upon this site to possibly connect with fellow Duranies by reading about their stories/experiences and share mine as well. I'm sure the majority of the lifelong fans have a wide variety of experiences to share. But, maybe I missed the secret code to get in this special club? How does one attempt to be part of this special click? Is it only welcoming to lifelong fans? Is it age 35 and up? What's the criteria? Do we need to submit photos of us w/the band to qualify? Or perhaps concert ticket stubs from the 80's? I mean, where does it end? Fortunately, I've met wonderful people everytime I've gone to a concert. But online is another story. Maybe someone can explain why most people online act so elitest.
Tell us more. Can you give examples of the superiority, jealousy and cattiness that you have found on FB and Twitter? I'm absolutely not doubting you just curious as to what you have come across!
I think you hit on a very good point…what's the secret code? This is precisely my point. There are hidden rules and expectations. We need to bring them out in the open, discuss them and decide if that is really what our community should be. Obviously, if your case, it is not an open community, which bothers me greatly. I hope you find this site to be open and welcoming, however.
-A